Laptop battery loses charge when off??

[micky]

Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.

I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
trouble with the battery, but this month, the battery went from fully
charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used. I had
hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger.

Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
done to 40% remaining. That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
unplugged.

The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
3-cell battery. It took over an hour or more to recharge.

The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
battery. When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
an hour to charge the last 1/3.

P.S. Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
house charger all the time, until this is resolved?

Thanks.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Well if they are hibernating rather than being turned off,
surely battery depletion should be expected. As I understand
things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when
you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain
systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing
keyboard keys and other inputs which require active
electronics to scan them.

Furthermore, it has to keep something alive that would tell
the rest of the machine where to load the data it stored
before going into one of your week long sleeps. OK, perhaps
nowadays the BIOS and interface is set up to do all this while
the electronics are actually powered down. But I doubt it, and
in any case what's wrong with just turning the thing off?

Anyway, if that four year old laptop has had a lot of use,
then it is quite normal for the battery to suffer a bit.
Lithium-Ion batteries have built in circuitry to manage them
(mainly to stop them catching fire), this inevitably drains
the battery slowly over time and if the battery is on it's
last legs, that and whatever drain the PC may add to it even
when the machine should be off (or worse, in hibernation) may
well give you the loss of charge you experience.

As for keeping them on their chargers, unless the charging
system is poorly designed, I'd figure that should be fine. The
transformer will always chew a little bit of power though,
converting it mostly into heat. Depending on the design, this
heat might be a problem (either in the transformer or the
laptop), but I'll leave you to figure how much damage it can
do.

[Bert]

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
As I understand
things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when
you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain
systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing
keyboard keys and other inputs which require active
electronics to scan them.

No, that's what happens when you suspend. In hibernation, the contents
of memory is written to disk and the machine is completely powered down.

Batteries of all types are subject to self-discharge to some extent. The
LiIon batteries usually used in laptops are supposed to do it at about
10% per month. Older batteries might go faster.

[micky]

Post by Bert

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
As I understand
things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when
you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain
systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing
keyboard keys and other inputs which require active
electronics to scan them.

No, that's what happens when you suspend. In hibernation, the contents
of memory is written to disk and the machine is completely powered down.
Batteries of all types are subject to self-discharge to some extent. The
LiIon batteries usually used in laptops are supposed to do it at about
10% per month. Older batteries might go faster.

That's probably it. What about those batteries that sell for 12 or
20 dollars, even for 6 cell. Do you only "get what you pay for", or
do some places charge extra for the same thing.

I once saw a Kodak refurbished digital camera in a "surplus" store for
$50 , adn then found the same thing on line from $50 to $200! Even
more than a new, not refurbished, Kodak camera of the same model and
everything that cost 100! For cordless phones, I've seen the same
vendor charging little more for 3 batteries than for one with the same
mdel number.

I'm not sure it's true anymore that you get what you pay for.

[micky]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:04:37 +0000 (UTC), Computer Nerd Kev

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Well if they are hibernating rather than being turned off,
surely battery depletion should be expected. As I understand
things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when
you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain
systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing
keyboard keys and other inputs which require active
electronics to scan them.

I'll admit that I brought up hibernation, but it doesn't work like you
said. Normally, hibernation just copies the RAM to a file on t he
harddrive -- in XP it is hiberfile.sys, which in my desktop is
3,220,230,144 bytels long. ( I have 4 gigs of Ram but the file isn't
that big either because XP can only use 3 Gig, or because when I
hibernated I was using only the number of bytes of RAM listed)

Now with the desktiop a few times, I've come back in the morning and
found that it never finished shutting down, so it was using power all
night, but that was obvious because the screen had some of the
programs I'd been running still showing. If I had stuck around the
night before, I could have made sure it closed down. With the
laptops, I have made sure.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Furthermore, it has to keep something alive that would tell
the rest of the machine where to load the data it stored
before going into one of your week long sleeps.

In addition it sets one byte or bit to "hibernated" so that on normal
start-up, if that byte is set, one of the first things it does is to
copy pagefile.sys back to RAM.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
OK, perhaps
nowadays the BIOS and interface is set up to do all this while

I think it's somewhere in the harddrive, probably a very early byte of
pagefile.sys (or possibly the very presence of pagefile.sys)

But it's like a note on the refrigerator door. It doesn't take any
power to stay there. Compared to the schedule of tv shows to
record that my non-calbe-company-supplied DVR forgets if there is a
power failure,(while it does remember the tv shows it has recorded,
because they are stored on a harddrive or DVD.)

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
the electronics are actually powered down. But I doubt it, and
in any case what's wrong with just turning the thing off?

Hibernation brings you back to where you were when you turned the
computer off. All the same programs are open and they're right where
you left them. It's great. One has to actually shut down
completely to make some updates take effect, like most security
updates from MS, the ones with the yellow shield in the systray, and
I believe some poorly written programs can require one to shut down
completely (no hibernation) even earlier than that. When things stop
working right, (after 3 or 4 or 7 days maybe), restarting the
computer, not just hibernating and waking up, can usually make it work
right again.

Sleep, or Suspend, also brings you back to where you were, but with
those two, the RAM has not been copied to t he HDD, so if there is a
power failure not protected for by a Uninteruptable Power Supply, the
computer forgets everything that was in RAM.

I always save my data before Sleep and even before Hibernate. One
time I intended to hibernate, but I pressed the wrong key and shut
down instead. Had I not saved my date, it would have been gone.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Anyway, if that four year old laptop has had a lot of use,
then it is quite normal for the battery to suffer a bit.
Lithium-Ion batteries have built in circuitry to manage them
(mainly to stop them catching fire), this inevitably drains
the battery slowly over time and if the battery is on it's
last legs, that and whatever drain the PC may add to it even
when the machine should be off (or worse, in hibernation) may
well give you the loss of charge you experience.

I'm not sure it does this all the time. I hibernated my own
computer last night, and about 12 hours later, it was down to 95%. In
6 days that would be 70%. I'll have to keep better track.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
As for keeping them on their chargers, unless the charging
system is poorly designed, I'd figure that should be fine. The
transformer will always chew a little bit of power though.

So far, I only use the netbook when traveling, which I average about 2
weeks a year. . If I were home, I' guess I'd let it run down,
unless that is really a bad thing to do.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
converting it mostly into heat. Depending on the design, this
heat might be a problem (either in the transformer or the
laptop), but I'll leave you to figure how much damage it can
do.

Okay. ;-)

Thanks.

[Bob_Villa]

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.

As I understand "hibernation"...ram is loaded into the hard drive and uses the least amount of power. If you unplug a desktop that is hibernating, and plug it back-in days later...it won't "know" its been unplugged!
I've had my Acer netbook (3yrs old with a 9-cell) for weeks without a problem, so it may be the battery as said.

[micky]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:27:02 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

Post by Bob_Villa

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.

As I understand "hibernation"...ram is loaded into the hard drive and uses the least amount of power. If you unplug a desktop that is hibernating, and plug it back-in days later...it won't "know" its been unplugged!
I've had my Acer netbook (3yrs old with a 9-cell) for weeks without a problem, so it may be the battery as said.

I bought this used and it came with a 6-cell. Supposed to be 6? oz.
heavier, than 3 cell, I think. I didn't know there were 9-cell.
Another 6? ounces?

He said in the ebay ad that it was 2 years old, but I've found some
dates in the computer from 2008. Yet this model, D250-1610, is only
2 years old, and Belarc says the four system passwords were all only
465 days old when I checked a couple days after I got the computer, so
it seems like the computer must be only 465 days old. Maybe there's
something he did to make the battery start to fail early??

[Charlie Hoffpauir]

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.
I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
trouble with the battery, but this month, the battery went from fully
charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used. I had
hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger.
Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
done to 40% remaining. That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
unplugged.
The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
3-cell battery. It took over an hour or more to recharge.
The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
battery. When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
an hour to charge the last 1/3.
P.S. Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
house charger all the time, until this is resolved?
Thanks.

I have a very nice Samsung Series 7 and it's behavior is exactly the
same as you've noticed. I soon learned NOT to leave it in sleep mode
for very long.

[micky]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:21:29 -0600, Charlie Hoffpauir

Post by Charlie Hoffpauir

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.
I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
trouble with the battery, but this month, the battery went from fully
charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used. I had
hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger.
Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
done to 40% remaining. That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
unplugged.
The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
3-cell battery. It took over an hour or more to recharge.
The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
battery. When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
an hour to charge the last 1/3.
P.S. Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
house charger all the time, until this is resolved?
Thanks.

I have a very nice Samsung Series 7 and it's behavior is exactly the
same as you've noticed. I soon learned NOT to leave it in sleep mode
for very long.

When you say Start / Shut Down, the only options showing are Standby,
Turn off, and Restart, but if you press Shift, Standby turns into
Hibernate. However there is no need to press Shift. Just press H
(for Hibernate) and it works even though that option is not showing.

[micky]

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
brand of laptop I have.
http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D

"Storing the battery:

Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.

"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively and keep
the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Make sure that it is
wrapped protectively and that nothing will be dropped on it. Do not
freeze the battery. Do not use old batteries. Avoid purchasing spare
lithium-ion batteries and storing them for later use. Do not buy old
stock, even if it is sold at clearance prices. While it makes sense to
have 2 or 3 extra batteries, so that you always have a fresh one
charged up and ready to go, if you buy batteries and store them for
years, they may not work when you decide to use them.

Consider removing the battery from your notebook when running on fixed
power. However, remember that when you have removed the battery from
your notebook while using it with an electrical outlet, the automatic
battery charger no longer keeps the battery charged."


My friend's, a 3-cell from the company that reconditioned his netbook
4 years ago, perhaps Acer itself, keeps its charge quite well.

Mine, a 6-cell on an Acer that is only about 2 years old, loses its
charge much more quickly, 50% in a week or so. Maybe the previous
owner kept the computer in a hot car

Post by micky
My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook.
I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
trouble with the battery, but this month, the battery went from fully
charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used. I had
hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger.
Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
done to 40% remaining. That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
unplugged.
The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
3-cell battery. It took over an hour or more to recharge.
The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
battery. When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
an hour to charge the last 1/3.
P.S. Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
house charger all the time, until this is resolved?

Apparently that's better than leaving it unplugged.

Post by micky
Thanks.

[~misfit~]

Post by micky

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
brand of laptop I have.
http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.
"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now. The 'battery' is a
collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst other
things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level the load so
that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the whole battery pack.

Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial number of
the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the general health of
the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power left to keep the PU powered
up then your battery is bricked - even if the cells are in 90% good
condition!

It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you need to
apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry before you
disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top variable PSU and a
couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them in just the right place with
just the right voltage dialed in and then, and only then - you can remove
the old cells and solder in new ones. Of course if the old battery's already
bricked due to zero current then you're SOOL.

It's not rocket science.

[micky]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:17:03 +1300, "~misfit~"

Post by ~misfit~

Post by micky

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
brand of laptop I have.
http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.
"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now.

I just checked my emails from 10 years ago, and no one wrote me about
this.

Post by ~misfit~
The 'battery' is a
collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst other
things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level the load so
that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the whole battery pack.

That sounds great, but it should do it for free. "I paid for this
battery."

Post by ~misfit~
Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial number of
the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the general health of
the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power left to keep the PU powered
up then your battery is bricked - even if the cells are in 90% good
condition!

Sounds like too much regulation, government regulation..

Post by ~misfit~
It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you need to
apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry before you
disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top variable PSU and a
couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them in just the right place with
just the right voltage dialed in and then, and only then - you can remove
the old cells and solder in new ones. Of course if the old battery's already
bricked due to zero current then you're SOOL.

That selttles it. I'm not rebuilding any battery packs.

Post by ~misfit~
It's not rocket science.

I never said my limit was rocket science. It's far below that.

Thanks.

[~misfit~]

Post by micky
On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:17:03 +1300, "~misfit~"

Post by ~misfit~

Post by micky

Post by micky
Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
brand of laptop I have.
http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If
you store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the
battery could fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself
consumes power.
"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now.

I just checked my emails from 10 years ago, and no one wrote me about
this.

Are you in the field of battery back design and management then?

Post by micky

Post by ~misfit~
The 'battery' is a
collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst
other things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level
the load so that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the
whole battery pack.

That sounds great, but it should do it for free. "I paid for this
battery."

All electronic circuits need to use power from somewhere. There's no such
thing as a free electron.

Post by micky

Post by ~misfit~
Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial
number of the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the
general health of the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power
left to keep the PU powered up then your battery is bricked - even
if the cells are in 90% good condition!

Sounds like too much regulation, government regulation..

Ok, are you.... Confused? It has nothing to do with governments. Without
this smart battery management you'd be lucky to get 3 months from a battery
pack. As it is I have 10 year old IBM X3x batteries that are only showing as
haing a 20% wear level. That's phenomenal and completely impossible without
the circuitry that monitors the cells, their temps when charging (and
adjusts the charge current accordingly) and a bunch of other things.

Post by micky

Post by ~misfit~
It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you
need to apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry
before you disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top
variable PSU and a couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them
in just the right place with just the right voltage dialed in and
then, and only then - you can remove the old cells and solder in new
ones. Of course if the old battery's already bricked due to zero
current then you're SOOL.

That selttles it. I'm not rebuilding any battery packs.

I might try it - if only because most of my machines don't have battery
packs available off-the-shelf so anything I buy is going to be not only
expensive but of iffy quality (and re-quire a non-bricked trade. If you do
it yourself you can buy high-quality Japanese cells rather than commodity
Chinese cells and end up with a battery pack that's can hold quite a bit
more charge than the new one and wil last a good long time. can't be said
for 80% of available re-builds.

Post by micky

Post by ~misfit~
It's not rocket science.

I never said my limit was rocket science. It's far below that.

LOL, me too.

Post by micky
Thanks.

You're welcome.

[Top]

Post by micky
"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively
and keep
the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator.

Thank you for this little tip. I have a 4 yp laptop that has sat
collecting dust because it would not charge. In fact it "seemed" as it
would not "see" the charger. Could not get a power light to come on,
even replaced the charger twice. I saw this today and thought what do I
have to lose, it is seemingly dead as it sits. I took the battery off
and stuck it in the freezer. For the heck of it I connected the charger
to the laptop and guess what!?? I got a power light and the beast
powered up. First time I've had it powered up in over 2 years. About 45
minutes later I put the battery back in and it has accepted a full
charge. I have to think the battery was low enough that the charge
circuitry wouldn't let it charge. As long as the almost "dead" battery
was in the laptop it wouldn't power up. Once the battery was not there
it solved that part of the problem.

Thanks for a hint that restored at dead laptop!

Top the lurker

[micky]

Post by Top

Post by micky
"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively
and keep
the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator.

Thank you for this little tip. I have a 4 yp laptop that has sat
collecting dust because it would not charge. In fact it "seemed" as it
would not "see" the charger. Could not get a power light to come on,
even replaced the charger twice. I saw this today and thought what do I
have to lose, it is seemingly dead as it sits. I took the battery off
and stuck it in the freezer. For the heck of it I connected the charger
to the laptop and guess what!?? I got a power light and the beast
powered up. First time I've had it powered up in over 2 years. About 45
minutes later I put the battery back in and it has accepted a full
charge. I have to think the battery was low enough that the charge
circuitry wouldn't let it charge. As long as the almost "dead" battery
was in the laptop it wouldn't power up. Once the battery was not there
it solved that part of the problem.
Thanks for a hint that restored at dead laptop!

I'll have to remember this myself. Come to think of it, I have a
laptop someone gave me becaue it was broken. Their daughter literally
spilled Pepsi on the keyboard, and while that's not good, I would
think it would have dried up by now (3 years later) **. And iirc, she
was sort of chuby. If it was diet Pepsi, seems like there would be
even less residue to cause problems. I'll take the battery out and
try it witout it. I should have done that. And I'll put the battery
in the freezer for an hour (my freezer is warmer than average) y i

**Really, does even sugar-based Pepsi conduct electricity well enough
to hurt a keyboard or whatever is under it? Especially at 12 or 19
volts or whatever laptsps use?

Post by Top
Top the lurker

A pleasure to be of help. A day or two after I posted the previous
post, I came acorss another article by Acer that said one should take
one or two spare batteries with him so he'll always have a charged
one. This and a couple other things were almost directly
contradictory to what I posted (by Acer.) .

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Post by micky
I'll have to remember this myself. Come to think of it, I have a
laptop someone gave me becaue it was broken. Their daughter literally
spilled Pepsi on the keyboard, and while that's not good, I would
think it would have dried up by now (3 years later) **. And iirc, she
was sort of chuby. If it was diet Pepsi, seems like there would be
even less residue to cause problems. I'll take the battery out and
try it witout it. I should have done that. And I'll put the battery
in the freezer for an hour (my freezer is warmer than average) y i

I wonder whether the cooling is helping the Lithium-Ion cells or simply
giving the control circuitry hell. I would suspect the second. In this
case it's worth keeping in mind that charging up under voltage
Lithium-Ion cells has the potential for causing a hot and perhaps
firery death for the battery. With this in mind, I'd think twice
before leaving the laptop to charge next to your curtains as normal
or in some other situation where it tempts a firery fate.

Post by micky
**Really, does even sugar-based Pepsi conduct electricity well enough
to hurt a keyboard or whatever is under it? Especially at 12 or 19
volts or whatever laptsps use?

Last year I pulled apart a laptop I was given in order to 1) replace the
fan that sounded like a lawn mower (literally) and 2) try to kill the
terrible rotting coffee smell that was emitted every time the laptop
warmed up. Inside, there was coffee residue everywhere but in the screen.
In areas on the motherboard where it was especially caked on, it seemed to
have corroded parts of the solder and formed lumps that I couldn't get
off in some areas for fear of breaking off components before the coffee
gave way. I was amazed the whole time that the thing was still working.

I completely disassembled everything but the screen then cleaned the
motherboard and other complex electronics by hand before washing
all the plastic and simple electronic parts in the sink. After a few
minutes on, the thing still stinks of coffee, but at least not quite
as bad.

The lesson I've learned is that this stuff might not short out after
a spill, but something like Pepsi can likely still corrode component
leads and solder. I also know how this can cause problems due to the
added resistance to connections. My advice: get in there and look at
the damage for yourself.

As for the conductivity of Pepsi, if you have a multi-meter, simply
pour a pool of Pepsi and use the resistance measurement function
to tell you its conductivity. If the multimeter shows infinate
resistance (a "1") on its highest scale while the probes are close,
then the Pepsi won't conduct anything meaningful at laptop voltages.

[~misfit~]

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I wonder whether the cooling is helping the Lithium-Ion cells or
simply giving the control circuitry hell. I would suspect the second.
In this case it's worth keeping in mind that charging up under voltage
Lithium-Ion cells has the potential for causing a hot and perhaps
firery death for the battery. With this in mind, I'd think twice
before leaving the laptop to charge next to your curtains as normal
or in some other situation where it tempts a firery fate.

It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that usually have
fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a battery at all, rather a single
cell used in 'dumb' mode). Part of the function of most laptop battery's
electronics is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the
pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when temps go outside
of a pre-defined range.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Last year I pulled apart a laptop I was given in order to 1) replace
the fan that sounded like a lawn mower (literally) and 2) try to kill
the terrible rotting coffee smell that was emitted every time the
laptop warmed up. Inside, there was coffee residue everywhere but in
the screen. In areas on the motherboard where it was especially caked
on, it seemed to have corroded parts of the solder and formed lumps
that I couldn't get off in some areas for fear of breaking off
components before the coffee gave way. I was amazed the whole time
that the thing was still working.
I completely disassembled everything but the screen then cleaned the
motherboard and other complex electronics by hand before washing
all the plastic and simple electronic parts in the sink. After a few
minutes on, the thing still stinks of coffee, but at least not quite
as bad.

As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a laptop's
motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few minutes, then washed in warm
water with a little mild detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly
a couple times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely dried
afterwards it should be fine[b].

[a] At your own risk of course. While I've safely done this myself I can't
warrant that it will be fine for your machine - especially bearing in mind
that there's likely to be an issue with it already or this wouldn't be
undertaken.

[b] I live in New Zealand and know quite a few IT people, some of whom have
worked for periods in the south Pacific Islands for periods of time. The
environment there can be *extremely* hostile to electronics with fine salt
spray blowing right across a lot of the low-lying islands.

I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island community in Samoa
who would sell computers; both laptops and desktops, and offer a three-year
warranty on them - but only if they were bought back for a week at the end
of the first and second years. He would strip them down completely and he
had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to wash and dry the circuit
boards of salty deposits each year. If customers were particularly close to
the ocean he'd do it bi-annually.

IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a bunch of the stuff
that he deemed too delicate to go through the washer) to the point wher
ethey were dripping with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate
in a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts to a
dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so hostile that, if such a
regime wasn't undertaken computers wouldn't usually last more than 18 months
tops (and that most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on hardware
used in the islands).

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Post by ~misfit~
It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that
usually have fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a
battery at all, rather a single cell used in 'dumb' mode).
Part of the function of most laptop battery's electronics
is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the
pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when
temps go outside of a pre-defined range.

Yes, only another part of that circuitry is usually to forbid
the charging of the cells if they are under the voltage where
they begin to deteriorate. If this part of the circuitry is
tricked into allowing the battery to be charged again, what's to
say the other safety features aren't disabled as well?

Post by ~misfit~

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I completely disassembled everything but the screen then
cleaned the motherboard and other complex electronics by
hand before washing all the plastic and simple electronic
parts in the sink. After a few minutes on, the thing still
stinks of coffee, but at least not quite as bad.

As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a
laptop's motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few
minutes, then washed in warm water with a little mild
detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly a couple
times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely
dried afterwards it should be fine[b].

Yes I've heard of this being done, I've never been brave enough
to do it myself though. My main fear is leaving moisture trapped
in areas of the board, plus in that case some of the residue
needed scraping with a screwdriver to remove, even after soaking
with methylated spirits.

Post by ~misfit~
I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island
community in Samoa who would sell computers; both laptops
and desktops, and offer a three-year warranty on them - but
only if they were bought back for a week at the end of the
first and second years. He would strip them down completely
and he had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to
wash and dry the circuit boards of salty deposits each
year. If customers were particularly close to the ocean
he'd do it bi-annually.
IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a
bunch of the stuff that he deemed too delicate to go
through the washer) to the point wher ethey were dripping
with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate in
a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts
to a dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so
hostile that, if such a regime wasn't undertaken computers
wouldn't usually last more than 18 months tops (and that
most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on
hardware used in the islands).

Facinating, I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem that
quickly.

[~misfit~]

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that
usually have fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a
battery at all, rather a single cell used in 'dumb' mode).
Part of the function of most laptop battery's electronics
is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the
pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when
temps go outside of a pre-defined range.

Yes, only another part of that circuitry is usually to forbid
the charging of the cells if they are under the voltage where
they begin to deteriorate. If this part of the circuitry is
tricked into allowing the battery to be charged again, what's to
say the other safety features aren't disabled as well?

What I think happens is that, in one way or another, the circuitry is
temporarilly changed briefly (until room temperature is reached) to allow a
trickle charge through when it normally wouldn't. If the cell is actually
OK, just has been let drain too far, then charging will continue and, in
effect the battery will be bought back to life.

If in fact the cell had been refused charge for some other reason - such as
it had deteriorated due to having reached the end of it's useful life then
it would get hot under charge, and wouldn't hold charge properly, and the
now room-temperature monitoring circuits would pick that up and 'brick' it
again.

My point is that (I think) all you are doing is tricking the control circuit
for as long as it takes the battery to warm up - not permanently. If any
'marked-defective' cells that were really only drained too far have managed
to take enough charge in that time for the PU to re-assess them as no longer
being defective then I would think there is no danger. It's almost the same
thing that would occur when replacing cells; The ciruitry reassesses them
and then treats them accordingly.

I'm told that a re-packed battery that uses the original protection and
charging circuitry has to be cycled several times until the PU updates the
state of the cells, stores and then starts to act on the new information. I
think that this same proccess can be made to happen sometimes by chilling
the battery pack and applying a charge to it while it's still cold. If cells
were erronously marked as being dead due to sitting too long then there's a
chance they can be given enough charge while the PU is basically asleep for
it to then re-assess them - and sometimes that's all they needed.

There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after leaving the
freezer the protection circuits become operational again - in fact I think
that it's likely always operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe
the sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell info from
VRAM.

Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant protection circuit on
the planar (I know that there is / was on IBM laptops - I think that most
others would be the same.)

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~

Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I completely disassembled everything but the screen then
cleaned the motherboard and other complex electronics by
hand before washing all the plastic and simple electronic
parts in the sink. After a few minutes on, the thing still
stinks of coffee, but at least not quite as bad.

As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a
laptop's motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few
minutes, then washed in warm water with a little mild
detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly a couple
times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely
dried afterwards it should be fine[b].

Yes I've heard of this being done, I've never been brave enough
to do it myself though. My main fear is leaving moisture trapped
in areas of the board, plus in that case some of the residue
needed scraping with a screwdriver to remove, even after soaking
with methylated spirits.

That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so that when all
trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still warm. Hopefully warm enough so
that there's not enough moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the
few times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in the hot water
cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with the door open. (Aim for about
25ºC above room temp and dry air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.)

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island
community in Samoa who would sell computers; both laptops
and desktops, and offer a three-year warranty on them - but
only if they were bought back for a week at the end of the
first and second years. He would strip them down completely
and he had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to
wash and dry the circuit boards of salty deposits each
year. If customers were particularly close to the ocean
he'd do it bi-annually.
IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a
bunch of the stuff that he deemed too delicate to go
through the washer) to the point wher ethey were dripping
with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate in
a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts
to a dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so
hostile that, if such a regime wasn't undertaken computers
wouldn't usually last more than 18 months tops (and that
most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on
hardware used in the islands).

Facinating, I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem that
quickly.

Apparently, yes. It was a reliable source. Those humid and salty South
Pacific Islands can be murder on (unprotected - or well ventillated as in
cooling airflow) PCBs - especially ones that have very fine traces and tiny
SM components.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Post by ~misfit~
There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after
leaving the freezer the protection circuits become
operational again - in fact I think that it's likely always
operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe the
sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell
info from VRAM.

Though it's still an unknown. Without analysing the circuit,
you can't tell whether the battery has re-checked itself or
the circuitry has a miss-designed failure mode where it allows
the battery to be charged "dumb". Back to my original point,
it seems enough of a risk to keep the machine away from the
flammables while left on the charge the first few times.

Post by ~misfit~
Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant
protection circuit on the planar (I know that there is /
was on IBM laptops - I think that most others would be the
same.)

I don't know in general, but some IBM ThinkPads used Lithium-
Ion batteries without control circuitry inside, hence they
must have put this inside the Laptop.

Post by ~misfit~
That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so
that when all trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still
warm. Hopefully warm enough so that there's not enough
moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the few
times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in
the hot water cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with
the door open. (Aim for about 25ºC above room temp and dry
air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.)

OK, I might give it a go next time I have a machine I don't
care about too much.

[~misfit~]

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after
leaving the freezer the protection circuits become
operational again - in fact I think that it's likely always
operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe the
sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell
info from VRAM.

Though it's still an unknown. Without analysing the circuit,
you can't tell whether the battery has re-checked itself or
the circuitry has a miss-designed failure mode where it allows
the battery to be charged "dumb". Back to my original point,
it seems enough of a risk to keep the machine away from the
flammables while left on the charge the first few times.

Oh, for sure - at the very least the first time - but then one would like to
think that if someone had gone to those lengths to try to breathe new life
into a battery pack / laptop then they'd be watching it closely anyway. i.e.
Not just throwing it on the bed, plugging it in and then throwing the covers
back.... <g>

I didn't mean to disagree with your suggestion of safety first at all. I was
only positing what I *think* happens when the afore-mentioned technique
gives a good result - and that I didn't think that, from that point on, for
the rest of it's life the machine / battery needed to be treated like an
IED. Safety first is always a good policy when dealing with things that may
explode or start a fire.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant
protection circuit on the planar (I know that there is /
was on IBM laptops - I think that most others would be the
same.)

I don't know in general, but some IBM ThinkPads used Lithium-
Ion batteries without control circuitry inside, hence they
must have put this inside the Laptop.

Ok, I can only talk about the models that I have myself really - and a
little of what I've read that seemed credible enough to be filed as 'fact
[check if unsure]' - usually from posters whom I trust at forums.thinkpads.

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so
that when all trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still
warm. Hopefully warm enough so that there's not enough
moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the few
times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in
the hot water cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with
the door open. (Aim for about 25ºC above room temp and dry
air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.)

OK, I might give it a go next time I have a machine I don't
care about too much.

It may just help. Usually it's only done as a last-ditch attempt anyway -
the exception being the guy I know who used to work in the Islands.....

Cheers,

[~misfit~]

Post by Computer Nerd Kev

Post by ~misfit~
There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after
leaving the freezer the protection circuits become
operational again - in fact I think that it's likely always
operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe the
sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell
info from VRAM.

Though it's still an unknown. Without analysing the circuit,
you can't tell whether the battery has re-checked itself or
the circuitry has a miss-designed failure mode where it allows
the battery to be charged "dumb". Back to my original point,
it seems enough of a risk to keep the machine away from the
flammables while left on the charge the first few times.

Post by ~misfit~
Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant
protection circuit on the planar (I know that there is /
was on IBM laptops - I think that most others would be the
same.)

I don't know in general, but some IBM ThinkPads used Lithium-
Ion batteries without control circuitry inside, hence they
must have put this inside the Laptop.

Post by ~misfit~
That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so
that when all trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still
warm. Hopefully warm enough so that there's not enough
moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the few
times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in
the hot water cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with
the door open. (Aim for about 25ºC above room temp and dry
air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.)

OK, I might give it a go next time I have a machine I don't
care about too much.

Well, it seems that I'm about to discover if there's anything to this
'frozen battery pack' thing for myself.

I like IBM / Lenovo15" T60 4:3 aspect ratio ThinkPads with the 1400 x 1050
resolution IPS screen. I would go as far as to say I *really* like them.
They were made in ~2007 but I'm not in the socio-economic group that can
afford to buy new laptops. Consequently I first one second-hand in late 2009
(it had a 36-month warranty as was still covered for ~6 months). It wasn't
cheap, costing me NZ$1,200, about 1/3 of what the high-end T60s cost when
they were new here.

In fact I liked it so much that, when I saw an identically-specced one for
sale for NZ$800 almost a year later I bought it as a spare. I think that
they're sufficeiently powerful to be useful for a decade at least and I
dislike short screens. Also, it's was prooving nigh-on impossible to get a
new laptop with an IPS screen (or was at the time). Lenovo had announced
they weren't going to use IPS after the T60 and I think that the quality of
the screen is importnat enough to be a deal-breaker / maker.

I'm still using my 'first' machine and, thankfully it's still going very
well, especially with the pinacle of HDD manufacture fitted, the Seagate
Momentus XT ST750LX003 750[8] GB hybrid HDD.

(This is worth a side-bar IMO. Seagate have decided in their infinite wisdom
that their newer, generation 3 range of Momentus XT drives will be 5,400rpm,
not 7,200 and also will use MLC NAND rather than the SLC used in this
(generation 2 XT hybrid) drive. As it's my experience that a good quality
HDD, well looked-after can last a long, long time and MLC NAND only has 10 -
25% of the 'life' of SLC it seems that Seagate are building to a
price-point. I don't think sales of this model were enough for them to
continue making them as 'enthusiasts' were using SSDs and, for some odd
reason, uptake of this brilliant drive was low. Grab remaining stock while
you can, they're not being made anymore. [You heard it here first!!] )

Every ~6 months I pull out the #2 machine and fire it up, update Windows
(both dual-boot XP and 7) and generally let it run for a few days to drive
out any moisture that may have worked its way in (it can be humid in NZ and
I can't afford climate-controlled storage unfortunately - a couple of items
from my 1960s / 70s vintage audio component collection have recently
suffered.)

Anyway, to the point.... At first the battery LED flashed orange for 10
seconds, then stayed lit orange. It showed in Windows that it was charging.
That worried me as part of the reason for the periodic fire-up of the
machines is to run the batteries through a few cycles and they're usually
still at half-charge when I get them out. However, over the next couple of
hours the battery charged fine, up to 100%. 3rd party software (Notebook
Hardware Control, [NHC]) said that the battery was 27% worn, about right, it
was 24% when last checked.

That night I turned it off and the next morning turned it on again. Well!
The battery LED flashed orange again and this time stayed flashing orange!
However, the odd thing is that the Lenovo battery software, while telling me
that the battery had failed due to general usage, still said 100%, ame as it
did when I charged it. (Normally if the batt's shot it shows 0%.) On
checking NHC it said that the battery was good, still holding 27% of specced
charge. Hmmmm....

So I unplugged the AC brick, started an AVI and left it to run. (Lenovo's
software instantly warned me to replace the battery....) It ran for just
over three hours - not bad for a fairly powerful laptop with a power-hungry
IPS display. (NHC said that the laptop was pulling ~21 watts from the
battery all of the time I was running it down.

However, once it was flat it wouldn't charge at all. I just get that Lenovo
'Power Manager' telling me the battery's shot. How can that be when it just
powered the machine for 3/4 of the time that a new battery would? It's
bloody annoying so the battery's in the freezer - 4 hours now - I'll put it
back in the laptop in a while and try it again..

Sorry for the digression, just thought the info was relevant.

[the wharf rat]

Post by micky
I'll have to remember this myself. Come to think of it, I have a
laptop someone gave me becaue it was broken. Their daughter literally
spilled Pepsi on the keyboard, and while that's not good, I would
think it would have dried up by now (3 years later) **. And iirc, she
was sort of chuby. If it was diet Pepsi, seems like there would be
even less residue to cause problems. I'll take the battery out and
try it witout it. I should have done that. And I'll put the battery
in the freezer for an hour (my freezer is warmer than average) y i

No!

First, take out all the batteries, even the little round yellow
one, then tear it down to major subsystems, wash the keyboard and the
motherboard clean in the sink (yes, with water), then let them dry for
a week (or 3 weeks if you live in Seattle). Put it all back together
and *then* apply electricity.

Chances are if it had power applied while it was wet it's bricked.
But maybe not... Stuff like this is why I gave my kid a Toughbook.